A look inside the Cathar worldview the Church tried to erase, from reincarnation to Magdalene’s hidden teaching, and why their gospel still threatens institutions today.
Thank you for this post. Although I was raised in the Christian faith I moved away from it as I explored other spiritual traditions and practices. Your writings have rekindled my interest and it feels good. ♥️
So this is Gnosticism, right? And thus appeals to “seekers” in the way that Gnosticism always has… by telling you that there is a deeper truth that you’re just not seeing yet, and only the enlightened will ever really get.
It’s appealing but a diversion, in my view. Orthodoxy, in the broad sense, works due to its clarity and the relatively simple understanding needed for faith. We can always go deeper if we are called to, but there are routes within orthodoxy for that.
Ciarán, nobody asked for a sermon on what “works.” Orthodoxy “works” at what, exactly? Consolidating power? Erasing competing voices? Calling crusades on anyone who didn’t toe the line? If that’s the clarity you’re defending, it’s not a strong flex.
And the move where you parachute into a discussion on the Cathars just to dismiss it with a hand wave is exactly the kind of certainty that made the Church think burning people was a form of quality control.
You didn’t engage the material. You didn’t challenge anything specific. You just assumed your framework is the only adult in the room.
If you want to have a real conversation about history, great.
If you just want to play referee for traditions you haven’t studied, that’s not needed here.
If you want to learn humility, try something other than Orthodoxy because it obviously isn't working for you
My apologies if the above comment comes across too glibly (but also sermonising?) - it was my immediate response after reading your piece.
My question is more open than that. I’ve always found the Cathars fascinating as a historical story but the actual beliefs have always been presented in vague terms (deliberately I suppose). In reading your piece, I learned quite a lot but the mention of a demiurge and particularly the focus on Mary Magdalene made me jump straight to Gnosticism. So it’s more of an open question - Do Cathars = Gnostics?
And then on my opinion of Gnosticism expressed above I’ll try not to overly rehash it or try to justify my own study as you seem to demand (because we know so many everyday people have hot-takes on…Gnosticism. Right?)
By work, I suppose I mean something fundamental such as bringing the world to salvation. My problem with Gnosticism is the tendency, as far as I understand it, to obscure that message of salvation in layers of complexity and hidden meanings. And for those of us that have that seeking mindset that want to go deeper, it has a real appeal.
But I think, as I said, that the gnostic approach to find a deeper meaning (or cosmology) between the lines is to miss the point. Tbe message of the gospels remain shocking today for their immediacy. That is the really radical part. It’s a message everyone could understand in a matter of hours, but a narrow way that is hard to truly follow.
Fascinating articles! After a deep dive into scripture to answer my plea: I just need to know God! The Bible is telling me so many new and wondrous things about God’s nature! But what I love, is that God’s saying the same thing to disciples everywhere!! It’s thrilling.
I am unsure whether there’s a significant difference between resurrection and reincarnation. Jesus did not deny the possibility of reincarnation, possibly suggesting that John the baptizer was a reincarnation of Elijah.
The Baha’is teach about reincarnation, although I am not clear on whom can be reincarnated. As much as I remember (I read some of the Baha’i teachings when I was dating a woman who is Baha’i), they teach that Mohammed was the reincarnation of Jesus who was the reincarnation of Zoroaster who was the reincarnation of the Buddha.
Reincarnation: rejected — souls do not return to new bodies.
Return: affirmed — divine spirit and attributes appear again in new messengers.
Progressive Revelation: God sends new Manifestations for each age, each revealing the same truth in a form suited to humanity’s maturity.
Sources:
“The return spoken of in the Holy Scriptures is not the return of the essence, but of the attributes.”
(Kitáb-i-Íqán, paragraph 161)
“Reincarnation is an illusion and contrary to the Divine Wisdom.”
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 283–286, 2014 edition)
“It is evident that the return which is spoken of in the divine scriptures is not the return of the essence but the return of the attributes.”
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 175)
“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples… These souls are all the same in their mission, though each has a distinct individuality.”
(Gleanings, Section XXXIV)
“The Prophets of God are not the same person returned, but are different individuals through whom the same Spirit of Truth is revealed anew.”
(Paraphrased from Shoghi Effendi’s letters, summarized in The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 104–105)
all of these can be read free online at the official Bahá’í reference library:
None of this was ever mentioned, taught, talked about in any of the Sunday school classes where we visited other churches & learned about other religions (of course there was no Cather church to visit), never brought up in required religious classes in jr high, high school or college.
I just read more historical information in the past 20 minutes about a group of people & their beautiful truth & beliefs that i may have to read it again to absorb it all. It is so ridiculously barbaric & I say oh God, the history of the world is so tragic, my tender weak little heart cant take it- & then I stop & look at today’s world & how history is repeating itself, as it always seems to.
Are we stupid, or what?
Yes i have other spiritual practices that have been lifesavers & fed my soul & still do - 12 step programs, the Peruvian Pachakuti Mesa tradition (World Reversal, which was being prophesied 25 years ago when introduced to me but didn’t think I’d live to see it unfolding…)
Reading & listening to Magdalene’s books is a lifesaver right now. I wish I hadn’t gone my whole life unaware of her (other than what the Bible says, which is a muddled mess as far as her truth goes) OR the Cathers.
Time to do it now. She brings me great peace & more love & truth being a heretic than my Lutheran upbringing ever did. 🌿⛰️💗🙏
Thank you for opening the door for me & teaching what i didn’t know I needed.
🌹Yes, bring back the voice of Mary Magdalene & the Cathar way of life!🕊️
Amen to that, Kaja. The world’s been starving for her voice. Time to let her gospel breathe again.
A Cathar catharsis?🤓
Thank you for this post. Although I was raised in the Christian faith I moved away from it as I explored other spiritual traditions and practices. Your writings have rekindled my interest and it feels good. ♥️
That means a lot, Lizzie. Leaving isn’t always rejection. Sometimes it’s how faith remembers how to breathe.
If the spark feels alive again, trust it. The soul never forgets the way home.
This is so interesting! A worldview of remembering... that's how I see the world.
So this is Gnosticism, right? And thus appeals to “seekers” in the way that Gnosticism always has… by telling you that there is a deeper truth that you’re just not seeing yet, and only the enlightened will ever really get.
It’s appealing but a diversion, in my view. Orthodoxy, in the broad sense, works due to its clarity and the relatively simple understanding needed for faith. We can always go deeper if we are called to, but there are routes within orthodoxy for that.
So no need to spin off down rabbit holes.
Ciarán, nobody asked for a sermon on what “works.” Orthodoxy “works” at what, exactly? Consolidating power? Erasing competing voices? Calling crusades on anyone who didn’t toe the line? If that’s the clarity you’re defending, it’s not a strong flex.
And the move where you parachute into a discussion on the Cathars just to dismiss it with a hand wave is exactly the kind of certainty that made the Church think burning people was a form of quality control.
You didn’t engage the material. You didn’t challenge anything specific. You just assumed your framework is the only adult in the room.
If you want to have a real conversation about history, great.
If you just want to play referee for traditions you haven’t studied, that’s not needed here.
If you want to learn humility, try something other than Orthodoxy because it obviously isn't working for you
My apologies if the above comment comes across too glibly (but also sermonising?) - it was my immediate response after reading your piece.
My question is more open than that. I’ve always found the Cathars fascinating as a historical story but the actual beliefs have always been presented in vague terms (deliberately I suppose). In reading your piece, I learned quite a lot but the mention of a demiurge and particularly the focus on Mary Magdalene made me jump straight to Gnosticism. So it’s more of an open question - Do Cathars = Gnostics?
And then on my opinion of Gnosticism expressed above I’ll try not to overly rehash it or try to justify my own study as you seem to demand (because we know so many everyday people have hot-takes on…Gnosticism. Right?)
By work, I suppose I mean something fundamental such as bringing the world to salvation. My problem with Gnosticism is the tendency, as far as I understand it, to obscure that message of salvation in layers of complexity and hidden meanings. And for those of us that have that seeking mindset that want to go deeper, it has a real appeal.
But I think, as I said, that the gnostic approach to find a deeper meaning (or cosmology) between the lines is to miss the point. Tbe message of the gospels remain shocking today for their immediacy. That is the really radical part. It’s a message everyone could understand in a matter of hours, but a narrow way that is hard to truly follow.
Fascinating articles! After a deep dive into scripture to answer my plea: I just need to know God! The Bible is telling me so many new and wondrous things about God’s nature! But what I love, is that God’s saying the same thing to disciples everywhere!! It’s thrilling.
I am unsure whether there’s a significant difference between resurrection and reincarnation. Jesus did not deny the possibility of reincarnation, possibly suggesting that John the baptizer was a reincarnation of Elijah.
The Baha’is teach about reincarnation, although I am not clear on whom can be reincarnated. As much as I remember (I read some of the Baha’i teachings when I was dating a woman who is Baha’i), they teach that Mohammed was the reincarnation of Jesus who was the reincarnation of Zoroaster who was the reincarnation of the Buddha.
In short, the Bahá’í position is:
Reincarnation: rejected — souls do not return to new bodies.
Return: affirmed — divine spirit and attributes appear again in new messengers.
Progressive Revelation: God sends new Manifestations for each age, each revealing the same truth in a form suited to humanity’s maturity.
Sources:
“The return spoken of in the Holy Scriptures is not the return of the essence, but of the attributes.”
(Kitáb-i-Íqán, paragraph 161)
“Reincarnation is an illusion and contrary to the Divine Wisdom.”
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 283–286, 2014 edition)
“It is evident that the return which is spoken of in the divine scriptures is not the return of the essence but the return of the attributes.”
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 175)
“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples… These souls are all the same in their mission, though each has a distinct individuality.”
(Gleanings, Section XXXIV)
“The Prophets of God are not the same person returned, but are different individuals through whom the same Spirit of Truth is revealed anew.”
(Paraphrased from Shoghi Effendi’s letters, summarized in The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 104–105)
all of these can be read free online at the official Bahá’í reference library:
https://www.bahai.org/library
None of this was ever mentioned, taught, talked about in any of the Sunday school classes where we visited other churches & learned about other religions (of course there was no Cather church to visit), never brought up in required religious classes in jr high, high school or college.
I just read more historical information in the past 20 minutes about a group of people & their beautiful truth & beliefs that i may have to read it again to absorb it all. It is so ridiculously barbaric & I say oh God, the history of the world is so tragic, my tender weak little heart cant take it- & then I stop & look at today’s world & how history is repeating itself, as it always seems to.
Are we stupid, or what?
Yes i have other spiritual practices that have been lifesavers & fed my soul & still do - 12 step programs, the Peruvian Pachakuti Mesa tradition (World Reversal, which was being prophesied 25 years ago when introduced to me but didn’t think I’d live to see it unfolding…)
Reading & listening to Magdalene’s books is a lifesaver right now. I wish I hadn’t gone my whole life unaware of her (other than what the Bible says, which is a muddled mess as far as her truth goes) OR the Cathers.
Time to do it now. She brings me great peace & more love & truth being a heretic than my Lutheran upbringing ever did. 🌿⛰️💗🙏
Thank you for opening the door for me & teaching what i didn’t know I needed.
I pray you learn to reject such heresy, not promulgate it, and return to the truth.
Haralds, I appreciate the prayer. I’ll return it to you in kind.
May you learn to reject fear disguised as faith and remember the God who never needed an Inquisition to defend Him.
The Cathars didn’t die spreading lies. They died refusing to pretend the empire’s version of God was love.